I could write some pithy introduction here, but let’s skip that and get right to it: The 2012 Hall of Fame ballot has been released, and there are more than a few guys with acne-scarred backs and lingering roid rage on it.
Here’s a list of the notables:
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Edgar Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Rafael Palmeiro
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker
If Tim Raines doesn’t get in this year, I won’t be held responsible for my actions.
But let’s get to it: If you’re voting, who on the above list gets in?
Oh, and the Cubs DFAed Casey Coleman yesterday.
React.
Bagwell, Bonds, Clemens, Raines, and maybe Trammell.
That’s my list.
You missed Sosa.
I don’t miss him in the least.
I sure do.
I’ve really been enjoying the Jeromy Burnitz/Jacque Jones/Cliff Floyd/Milton Bradley/Kosuke Fukudome/David Dejesus era, myself, said no one.
Hey, don’t get me wrong…I think it’s time for the Cubs to invite him back and to retire his number. I didn’t particularly like what he had become when his broken down body left town.
Hey, Jacque Jones and Milton Bradley were at least entertaining.
What is there to discuss? The answer is an unequivocal “yes,” and if you disagree with me your opinion doesn’t count.
This is a hell of a class. I’d vote for:
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Lee Smith
Sammy Sosa
Not that I think first ballot/later ballot matters, but if it did, I’d prefer Biggio on a later ballot (Sandberg > Biggio, and he had to wait, so…)
I would also vote for McGwire.
And he’d vote for you.
Look at Sammy’s statistics.
Also look at baseball attendance and revenues pre-1998 and post-1998. He and McGwire are nearly single-handedly responsible for bringing baseball back.
Roger Maris was an icon for almost 4 decades…not a hall of famer…same with McGwire (and Sosa).
That doesn’t even make sense.
Their statistics speak for themselves. They were the best players at their positions for long stretches. Their peaks were fairly long. They are clear Hall of Famers.
No. Mark McGwire is not a clear Hall of Famer.
He was not the best player at his position ever…and there really wasn’t a long stretch when he was consistently good because he was hurt so often…
Better overall 1st basemen during McGwire’s career:
Fred McGriff
Jim Thome
Jason Giambi
Frank Thomas
Jeff Bagwell
Rafael Palmeiro
Will Clark
Even, arguably, Mark Grace
For some reason, I get the feeling Casey Coleman will be back for spring training and somehow make the team.
Here is the list of the top 10 closest players statistically to Mark McGwire according to Baseball Reference…only two are hall of famers (with 1 likely to go in the future).
Jose Canseco
Jason Giambi
Harmon Killebrew
Carlos Delgado
Willie McCovey
David Ortiz
Norm Cash
Juan Gonzalez
Dave Kingman
Rocky Colavito
Sosa’s case is much stronger, though he proved less valuable throughout his career…his top 10 comparables, 7 of whom are hall of famers, with the other 3 likely to go in…
Jim Thome
Mike Schmidt
Reggie Jackson
Ken Griffey
Harmon Killebrew
Eddie Mathews
Mickey Mantle
Willie Stargell
Gary Sheffield
Willie McCovey
The problem with me for Sosa is that his qualifications for the Hall all entirely hinge on what he did after he started juicing up.
Steroids is irrelevant to the discussion.
I disagree.
But you’re wrong. So.
I disagree with that too.
I’ve said it before and I will say it again……Craig Biggio was one of the best that ever played the game. 1st Ballot HOF IMO
I’ll have to think about it more. I’ve come around on Biggio a lot over the last few years. He’s probably up there with Alomar and Larkin. Since neither of those players were 1st ballot guys, Biggio isn’t either.
From about 93-99 he was one of the very best players in the game, and certainly the best second baseman. That’s a HOFer to me, for sure.
It took me some time to come to that realization. I despised him because he always seemed to kill the Cubs.
I’m sorry, I don’t think saying Biggio was “certainly the best second baseman” during that stretch is entirely true. I do believe he and Alomar need to be evaluated pretty closely…the case can be made for Biggio being the best…he certainly was in the NL, but I think Alomar was right up there. Over his career, Alomar was an All-Star more times and won more gold gloves too.
And on top of that, I think an argument could be made about Jeff Kent as well.
Don’t get me wrong, I think Biggio deserves to go, but to say he was clearly the best second baseman of that time can’t be said without argument.
Biggo was one of the 5 best 2b of all time, per Bill James.
Maybe so…where did he rank Alomar?
Sitting down an looking closely at the statistics, the two (Alomar and Biggio) seem to be pretty even…even their peak years are very close.
When I get home, I might have to do a more thorough comparison.
I’m too lazy to walk to the next room to grab my historical abstract, but I know Joe Morgan was #1, and Rogers Hornsby was up there too. I think James had Biggo ahead of Alomar because of defense.
I just, for some reason, completely forgot Alomar existed. I think they were about even, and way ahead of the rest.
I think Jeff Kent wasn’t that far behind…after that, you are correct, there is quite a distance between those guys and everyone else that played that position during that time period.
Here is my list:
Bonds
Mattingly
Dale Murphy
Lee Smith
Tim Raines
Alan Trammel
Later Ballot: Biggio, Bagwell, McGriff.
As for why: because I said so. Which seems as valid a reason as why many do/don’t go into the HOF…
I have a real hard time seeing Dale Murphy as a hall of famer. He had 3 or 4 really good years and a lot of meh years. If he were to go in, you’d have to also put McGriff in.
Lee Smith is in interesting case. I pretty much ignore relievers, which is probably a mistake.
Don Mattingly…someone really needs to make a case to me that he is a hall of famer, because I don’t see it at all.
Relievers are some of my favorite players to watch going back to Eck and the Oakland A’s. Lee Smith played for 8 teams in his 18 years,and his save record of 478 held until 2006; only Trevor Hoffman and Mariano Rivera have passed him…
And I would have a hard time saying Trevor Hoffman is a Hall of Famer. In fact, I’d put Lee Smith in before Hoffman. Actually, I might have even put Lee Smith in before Bruce Sutter (who I also believe doesn’t deserve to be in the hall).
Rivera is a hall of famer…without a doubt.
You know…I forget about Mike Piazza.
He probably deserves to go in. I don’t recall anything linking him directly to steroid use…but I don’t recall him ever being on any list or failing any tests.
If nothing ever came out about him…I’d have to say that he probably belongs just like Jeff Bagwell.
There are reports he might have taken a supplement that might have contained a form of testasterone,prior to it being banned. He has an autobiography coming out next year as well.
Personally I feel that if you used steroids, your name should not even be on the ballot. Out of the bunch of players on the list this year, I only see 3 I would deem as Hall worthy. Raines, Smith & McGriff. All 3 had long careers & were at the top of their class during their playing days
Here’s a link to 25 players who used or are suspected of using steroids. There is no excuse for cheating through chemistry. If you let the cheaters in, then Pete Rose & Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall too…
http://www.complex.com/sports/2012/07/the-25-best-alleged-and-confirmed-steroid-users-in-baseball-history/
Honestly…that list is kinda silly.
Just about every ballplayer during that time period (with a few exceptions) can be suspected of using steroids.
That argument doesn’t hold water with me — I think Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe *should* be in the Hall. It’s the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Nice Guys; just ask anyone who knew Ty Cobb.
‘…Baseball is a wonderful game, but it is not made up of perfect people doing virtuous things. Let’s stop pretending it is’.
From Jon Greenberg’s yesterdays column ‘Sosa Belongs in Hall of Fame’ which I know Doc doesn’t agree with but that is an entirely different discussion from article’s much broader discussion on the ‘steriod era’.
And yes I think Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe should be in the Hall of Fame.
Everyone used steroids. That means the playing field was even. It is a non-issue.
Greg Maddux did not use steroids. Your argument is null and void.
Ha
Only the ‘Everyone’ part. People who don’t believe that probably the majority didn’t try are playing ostrich.
What many won’t consider is that the individual had to have the talent to play the game in the first place.And talent is what made the ‘career’.
No, “everyone” did NOT use steroids. This is a generalization spread by the guys who did.
Look, plenty of people cheat on their taxes. You don’t let the people who get caught off because “everyone does it.”
they should. because everyone cheats on their taxes.
Some of these are a real struggle for me. Clemens, total slimeball jag that he is, was a great pitcher. I actually batted against him in a charity function and although I know he was not throwing his hardest, I never saw the 5 pitches he threw to me. Saw him pitch in person several times at the height of his career and he was just awesome. Sosa, I remember being in Comiskey for an employer function and saw him throw a ball from near the right field corner, over 3rd base, and into the stands; then hit a monster homerun that I am still not sure has landed yet. Bonds, even when he was coming up with the Pirates you could see greatness. Piazza, a great hitter, but a total butcher on the field. McGuire was a one dimensional player, never hit for average, and was a complete bum in the field. I cannot, in good conscience, vote for them. The evidence is there; they cheated, whether it was being checked for at the time does not matter. I know people will say Ty Cobb was a racist, and Babe Ruth was a womanizer and had other faults, but I am not voting for them. Much like the Black Sox-they knew what they were doing was wrong and therefore must be punished for it. Steroids does matter; it did effect their abilities
Therefore, my ballot is Raines, Lee Smith, Bagwell and Biggio, but not on the first ballot. Although there have been rumors about the last two, guilt by association does not cut it with me.
I don’t recall there actually being any rumors about Craig Biggio…but if you are going to do guilt by association, then basically no one that played between 1990 until 2003 should be allowed into the hall.
More like 1986 and now.
Or, thinking about it the other way, no one who played between 1990 and 2003 should be discounted because of it.
Bagwell, Biggio, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Morris, Raines, Schilling, Smith, Sosa.
The first five just scared me. Morris gets in on having decent stats, plus ’91 game 7, plus a lot of anecdotal evidence about him pitching garbage time in blowouts and giving up lots of runs to preserve the bullpen inflating his ERA. Raines because Julie threatened us. Schilling because the Bloody Sock and 2001 as well. Smith because he’s one of the greatest relievers ever. Sosa because if not for him I probably don’t care about baseball (I turned 10 in 1998.)
And before anyone says “but steroids!”, I respond Gaylord Perry. Admitted and known cheater; got in anyway. Steroids are no worse than spitballing or sandpapering or whatever else he did.
Thank you. Someone has to talk some sense into this crowd.
Gaylord Perry was a good pitcher regardless of when he doctored the baseball…he didn’t cheat on every single pitch or appearance he made.
A majority of Bonds and Clemens careers were probably clean…at which time they put up hall of fame numbers anyway.
Sosa only achieved hall of fame status because of steroids.
McGwire’s stats would have been pretty good if he never touched the steroids (if he could have stayed healthy), but even with them, I don’t see him as a hall of famer.
He’s the only one I know who actually got kicked out of a game for ‘cheating’ other than corked bats breaking thus allowing the batter to be caught red-handed.
I recall the umpire stated that the ball had such an unbelievable movement he had to kick him out.
And Perry denied it but then so would anyone.
And Corked bats.
I have issues with “single events” being a qualification for the World Series. If ’91 game 7 and bloody sock qualify someone for the hall of fame (Morris does have many more qualifications…don’t get me wrong), then Roger Maris should be in.
I figured if we kept talking we’d agree on something today
Julie’s comment isn’t a threat.
It’s a disclaimer
Fucking hell…
the Cubs new director of baseball operations is…
(fucking hell…)
12 years…
(fucking hell…)
younger…
(fucking hell…)
than me.
I feel like I should be on social security and living in Florida just riding out my final days.
Fucking hell.
A goofy tangent and goofy comment:
One drug situation that always cracks me up is when a player, usually a boxer, gets penalised when he tests positive for marijuana.
Now there’s a real performance enhancer.
Listen IMO anyone proven, accused, went to trial for possible juicing or otherwise would never get my vote. Almost all of the players on the list were my idols when I was younger and collecting baseball cards now none of them I can look at without putting a * by their name. Give me a few cc’s of some shit and I’ll knock out 30 homers. I’ll take Mattingly, Raines, Murphy, Smith, Trammell, McGriff and Moriss. Again I don’t agree with cheating. When I played ball I busted my ass off and was proud of what I accomplished. I never for one second ever thought about juicing. And of course Canseco can suck my ass just because he is an ass.
No, see, that’s not right. You would not hit 30 homers if you got steroids. Because steroids do not help you be a good hitter. They don’t help you make contact or know how to work the count or when to recognize specific pitch types. It might turn a few of the warning track outs to first row homers. That’s it.
When Sammy started hitting homers, it wasn’t because more of his fly balls were drifting a bit further. He was more selective in hitting. He stopped swinging at curves in the dirt and sliders low and away.
When it comes to any former Astros, I want to point out that those guys spent some time as teammates of one Ken Caminiti, steroid abuser and one-time NL MVP. I’ve also heard that Jeff Bagwell is a shadow of his former muscular self. And before we start saying that Biggio never did steroids, let’s remember there were quite a few players who were caught who didn’t look like muscle-bound freaks. Just because they didn’t get caught or get their name released does it mean they weren’t doping. We’ll never know for sure. For all I know, Sandberg may have been doing them.
And when we start proselytizing about the sanctity of the game back in the 50′s or 60′s, lets remember that amphetamines were distributed like candy in the clubhouses at least during the 60′s (reference to Ball Four). Those were definitely performance enhancers. So you better think twice whether baseball was ever pure.